saywaking 289 Posted December 20, 2014 Hiinformations about the using systemTrinity: 11750dashlaunch 3.14Aurora 0.4bxell 0.993 (beta?)mupen 0.993 beta 2 1TB internal hdd the example rom is in HDD1://emulators/games/n64roms/*Mupen is in HDD1://emulators/mupen64-360_v0.993_beta2Mupen is started via Aurora FilemanagerI want to start mupen and roms on the internal HDD. Preparing USB with mupen in root is not nice.Starting from external USB stick with Xell does work. But it does not work with harddrives internal (and external).i get an error: segmentation fault. (see attachment)What has to be done?Will there be a fix or support for internal drives (FATX)?Thanks for reading Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Swizzy 2083 Posted December 20, 2014 There probably won't be a fix for quite some time, i'm no longer actively working with Libxenon... which is where the problem is... the segmentation fault is basically the same as a unhandled exception... And the problem is only when you run it from your HDD? have you put the mupen64 files where they need to be according to the readme? i'm pretty sure there was a specific location they had to be in... (been a while since i compiled and tested this) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
saywaking 289 Posted December 20, 2014 well, i really wish there would be a quick hotfix or something and yes i know it has to be on root of an external usb but that's not good enought. it should support internal hdd with any fileposition. im not sure if xell or mupen has to be edited for this. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Swizzy 2083 Posted December 20, 2014 What do you mean "any position"? any folder on any device? Do you even know what this is? it's homebrew, it runs like it would in linux, it doesn't know where the elf was loaded from, therefor all it can do is read pre-defined paths... Yes, it'd be nice to have it support internal hdd aswell, but this is down to libxenon not having proper support for xtaf anymore, it used to work (way back) but somewhere along the way something changed causing it to not work anymore, and nobody really wants/knows how to fix it... mainly because there's been ALOT of ppl comming and going doing changes here and there, everyone doing things alone (pretty much) so, it's one big mess... it's not easy to wrap ones head around how another developer things when there's little comments explaining things, let alone 10+ developers... no 2 developers generally think exactly the same way, so what makes sense for me might not make as much sense for you... XeLL does NOTHING once you've loaded a homebrew application it's completely unloaded... the homebrew application gets full control of everything... so... all fixes/changes has to be done to Mupen, but... Mupen uses LibXenon which is also part of XeLL... this is where the problems are for the XTAF support... so, you have to start by fixing LibXenon then you can move on to fixing whatever needs to be fixed in mupen 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
saywaking 289 Posted December 20, 2014 I understand Yes linux has different path management Shit. I never liked libxenon tho. Well giess its time for xdk port then. Thanks for explanation anyway. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Swizzy 2083 Posted December 20, 2014 That's just it, when you run it with Libxenon you're closer to the hardware then when you're running it with XDK... when using XDK you have the full 360 kernel running along side your code, and you have alot of other shit going on aswell making your app have less memory, less computing power etc. etc. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
saywaking 289 Posted December 20, 2014 I heard libxenon also has less memory for use. I think xdk is better anyway. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dr.Gonzo 392 Posted December 20, 2014 The XDK/SDK is only a development environment (it contains the compiler, linker, debugger, and so on). You have on Libxenon environment tools too. Which are better, I cant say, but It is not unknown, that MS has very good Compiler. They produce very fast code on X86/64. On Xbox 360 you cant directly access the hardware, because you have between the executive hardware and your code, various hardware/software abstraction layer. The (S)HAL needs computing power too. With Libxenon you are closer to the Hardware, and you have more computing power available, because many (S)HAL are not present. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
saywaking 289 Posted December 20, 2014 I know. But for simple homebrew it is not necessary to have so much power. Linux coding is also simplier i heard of but when we want to see examples its not good enough yet. There was pcsx libxenon version. But now there is a much better xdk version. I bet libxenon has potential but it looks like it did not satisfy people or it was harder to code on. And i actually want to have one os and not switch os all the time. Good that there are launchers now but its always better to have little bit of unity. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Swizzy 2083 Posted December 20, 2014 The XDK/SDK is only a development environment (it contains the compiler, linker, debugger, and so on). You have on Libxenon environment tools too. Which are better, I cant say, but It is not unknown, that MS has very good Compiler. They produce very fast code on X86/64. On Xbox 360 you cant directly access the hardware, because you have between the executive hardware and your code, various hardware/software abstraction layer. The (S)HAL needs computing power too. With Libxenon you are closer to the Hardware, and you have more computing power available, because many (S)HAL are not present. You're wrong about the architecture here, Xbox 360 is PPC64 not x86/64 (like Xbox and Xbox One) and although XDK is the SDK the hardware is also referred to as XDK... and anything built using those tools are often referred to as "XDK homebrew" I know. But for simple homebrew it is not necessary to have so much power. Linux coding is also simplier i heard of but when we want to see examples its not good enough yet. There was pcsx libxenon version. But now there is a much better xdk version. I bet libxenon has potential but it looks like it did not satisfy people or it was harder to code on. And i actually want to have one os and not switch os all the time. Good that there are launchers now but its always better to have little bit of unity. The thing is, Libxenon is crap when it comes to documentation, there's very little you can read about around it, and there's plenty of issues still in it (as you've noticed!) on top of that, Libxenon don't have a graphics engine built into it really, it have the stuff to communicate with the GPU... but... other then that, nothing really... Mupen isn't "simple homebrew", it's advanced homebrew (any emulator is advanced as it has to pretty much translate the original systems operations to whatever it's running on, and it has to run a virtual console pretty much which behaves like the original system when the games expect it to, but also behaves like it's supposed to on the arch it's running on...) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dr.Gonzo 392 Posted December 20, 2014 It's not about having more power, but to be able to access hardware directly. This can provide significant Timing advantage, in different cases. It depends exactly on the application. Linux coding is also simplier i heard of but when we want to see examples its not good enough yet. The Coding of programs itself, is completely independent of any platform. The programming is actually the same, as long as you use any system-specific functions. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dr.Gonzo 392 Posted December 20, 2014 You're wrong about the architecture here, Xbox 360 is PPC64 not x86/64 (like Xbox and Xbox One) and although XDK is the SDK the hardware is also referred to as XDK... and anything built using those tools are often referred to as "XDK homebrew" I now that the Xbox 360 use the Power PC architecture. I'm assuming that the MS Compiler generally produce very fast, PPC code too. I have expressed myself wrong. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
saywaking 289 Posted December 20, 2014 Well im an enduser and im looking at things differently as developers. When i see big games like gta 5 which is defintly not libxenon but xdk developed and i see homebrew stuff. I gave you the example of pcsx. We have both versions. Libxenon which one sucks and xdk which rocks. Swizzy is right. The documentation of libxenon sucks. Thats why it died. And when i see xdk has also anything to accomplish goals im asking myself: why do we have another system on top of that? I just would like to focus on xdk only and i bet this is enough for anything. I asked once tuxuser about a GUI for xell. He said there was no enough memory if i remember correctly. Anyway. Xdk mupen would solve this problem. We want to use HUD to get quickly back into aurora. This workaround via xellaunch is not nice. I know that xdk has all the needs for simple homebrew. Btw. Is virtual ram possible? Or a pagefile like on windows? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Swizzy 2083 Posted December 20, 2014 What tuxuser meant with "not enough memory" is not enough space in the NAND for it... the RAM itself is by far good enough otherwise we wouldn't even have games on it;) The difference between XDK and Libxenon is that Libxenon is 100% Legal, XDK is illegal (in reality it's illegal for us as we're not supposed to have it, we're using leaked stuff) The reason PCSXR is better on XDK is because of the documentation being better and having to handle much less stuff on our own... making it easier to work with... 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dr.Gonzo 392 Posted December 20, 2014 We have both versions. Libxenon which one sucks and xdk which rocks. Swizzy is right. The documentation of libxenon sucks. Thats why it died. And when i see xdk has also anything to accomplish goals im asking myself: why do we have another system on top of that? I just would like to focus on xdk only and i bet this is enough for anything. I asked once tuxuser about a GUI for xell. He said there was no enough memory if i remember correctly. That the documentation Libxenon is bad, you can not judge, because you have no clue about the whole matter and you never have programmed a line Code in your life. The main problem is, that the 360 (JTAG) Hack and Libxenon, came very late in the lifetime of the 360, and the Homebrew-Scene was not like same as the Xbox 1 time, we have see new Homebrew Content, every weak. Of course the Xbox 360 Kernel have various functions and supports the concept of virtual memory. However unlike to Windows, the hard drive is not used as a backing space. That means that game usage of memory, cannot exceed the physical Memory size of the 360. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
saywaking 289 Posted December 21, 2014 What tuxuser meant with "not enough memory" is not enough space in the NAND for it... the RAM itself is by far good enough otherwise we wouldn't even have games on it;) Yes, well that was the problem. But thats why programming has always alternative ways. The "optional" GUI (files) could be loaded from internal/external hdd (into the RAM). That would be my first idea but i guess people thought about it. Now i need the missing public explanation. Otherwise people can't learn stuff. That the documentation Libxenon is bad, you can not judge, because you have no clue about the whole matter and you never have programmed a line Code in your life. The main problem is, that the 360 (JTAG) Hack and Libxenon, came very late in the lifetime of the 360, and the Homebrew-Scene was not like same as the Xbox 1 time, we have see new Homebrew Content, every weak. Well Swizzy said so, i did not But what you say is also right. The main thing is that we can compare the xdk and libxenon documentation. And then you can guess so why xdk is a little bit better, i saw both. And like i said, we did not need libxenon, because we could do all with xdk. My opinion on libxenon, it came too late, it has not good enough documentation and it could not proove its power as it also was not pushed well enough. That's what we see as enduser. There is no offense, that's just our perspective which has to be accepted. Otherwise you have to try to explain and deliver proper answers. If you work as a coder you see the demand. But sometimes you say that is not possible or a bad idea. You know your code but you have to put yourself into the brains of your consumers and think of how they are seeing your product without knowing how it works. It helps sometimes to satisfy the people. And thats done by explaining in a good way. And currently im satisfied enough Thanks for your answers. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Swizzy 2083 Posted December 21, 2014 The thing is, as homebrew developer(s) ppl generally don't listen to "demands", after all none of us get paid for what we do... some of us ask for donations and get practically nothing... Due to the low income from it and it mostly being a fun side/past time project or whatever... nobody likes it when ppl come with demands for new features, kind requests... ok... demands like "it has to have this" or similar mainly annoy the developers... 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FaTaLiiTYz 56 Posted December 21, 2014 i always had this error running from external usb so if you burn to dvd it will run from there, thats how i solved my issue. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Swizzy 2083 Posted December 21, 2014 i always had this error running from external usb so if you burn to dvd it will run from there, thats how i solved my issue. Except DVD doesn't work when using 0.993 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
saywaking 289 Posted December 21, 2014 The thing is, as homebrew developer(s) ppl generally don't listen to "demands", after all none of us get paid for what we do... some of us ask for donations and get practically nothing... Due to the low income from it and it mostly being a fun side/past time project or whatever... nobody likes it when ppl come with demands for new features, kind requests... ok... demands like "it has to have this" or similar mainly annoy the developers... You choose the way. I know people who are doing homebrew for their Smart TVs and they dont even publish stuff because they are using on their own. You don't owe your "users" anything but if you publish for community there should be a communication between devs and users. And you do this by this forum. Others don't. But also some goals are sometimes unclear. I dont know why you are failing pushing homebrew-connection or why you are not up2date with dashlaunch news in this site right now. Im not sure whether you're interested in public, in this work or not, or you may be lazy or just buzy? Sometimes we see no interest and sometimes we do see something. I always look for best solutions. I would definitly do some major work in this if i would have the skills. My wish would be to be more active. And maybe you could earn something, if that is a goal, which is unclear. Anyway you devs rock. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FaTaLiiTYz 56 Posted December 21, 2014 Except DVD doesn't work when using 0.993 not updated it for a while. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Swizzy 2083 Posted December 21, 2014 You don't owe your "users" anything but if you publish for community there should be a communication between devs and users. Yes, but the communication have to be on a proper level, comming with demands isn't proper, i mean if you went to your friends place needing help you don't tell them "you help me or i'm no longer going to be your friend" do you? you ASK for help... why are the forums any different from that? is it because you don't know the developers personally? Not sure what HC.org have to do with any of this? it was a project started with Me and Razkar, now it's pretty much me alone running the site, he's paying the bills, i deal with everything else... alongside all development work i do, and having some entertainment... but, i guess the entertainment for me should go away so i can focus entirely on work that's no fun... just because i'm an admin of a site and work on tools which i give away for free... me personally have NEVER asked for donations to myself, the only times i've mentioned it has been for Phoenix... right now i don't even have a job, i have no income what so ever, i still don't ask for donations... 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gavin_darkglider 1562 Posted December 21, 2014 Moved to aurora suggestions. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Swizzy 2083 Posted December 22, 2014 Could you perhaps split that post up a little into smaller chunks? kinda annoying to read a huge block of text... And since most are actually suggestions for Aurora, perhaps put it into a separate thread? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dr.Gonzo 392 Posted December 22, 2014 Yes, well that was the problem. But thats why programming has always alternative ways. The "optional" GUI (files) could be loaded from internal/external hdd (into the RAM). That would be my first idea but i guess people thought about it. Now i need the missing public explanation. Otherwise people can't learn stuff. Well Swizzy said so, i did not But what you say is also right. The main thing is that we can compare the xdk and libxenon documentation. And then you can guess so why xdk is a little bit better, i saw both. And like i said, we did not need libxenon, because we could do all with xdk. My opinion on libxenon, it came too late, it has not good enough documentation and it could not proove its power as it also was not pushed well enough. That's what we see as enduser. There is no offense, that's just our perspective which has to be accepted. Otherwise you have to try to explain and deliver proper answers. If you work as a coder you see the demand. But sometimes you say that is not possible or a bad idea. You know your code but you have to put yourself into the brains of your consumers and think of how they are seeing your product without knowing how it works. It helps sometimes to satisfy the people. And thats done by explaining in a good way. And currently im satisfied enough Thanks for your answers. You do not understand the reason of Libxenon ! Libxenon was created to program code on 360, without violate the Law. All the SDK stuff and the generated binaries from the SDK are illegal, if you are not the rightful owner. The advantage of the original Xbox 360 SDK is, that you have an excelente documentation about every API, all is explained in detail. You have for many stuff development libraries. It taking a lot of work off the hands. In Libxenon there is nothing , you have to do a lot things by yourself. But the programing itself is the same. I dont know why you are failing pushing homebrew-connection or why you are not up2date with dashlaunch news in this site right now. Im not sure whether you're interested in public, in this work or not, or you may be lazy or just buzy? The post of new XeBuild versions and other important things, is the matter of the Leader/Admins of this Forum. And dear Saywaking, a.k.a Saywa... I would look at your attitude and how do you talk to other users. Otherwise, your time here will be just shortly as to Xboxhacks.de times. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites